PGTips91

Well something more than this : --


It is now about six weeks since the announcement, and customers of Linspire are still coming to terms with a default in the service that they expected. While no one would have expected CNR Warehouse to continue indefinitely once CNR.com was fully operational, which is is not as yet, I for one had no inkling that there would be no continued support for my installed Linspire 5.0.59 into the foreseeable future.

Why should I have expected that? As a Life-time Insider, part of the reward of my assistance to Lindows, at the time, was a life-time membership of the CNR Warehouse. I have never been approached by the company with a variation of that agreement and can only feel cheated and betrayed by their unilateral action in removing the service without making a transition to the new service available.

I do not buy into their argument that it was unaffordable for them to make that transition available. All that they had to do was to copy the repositories for Linspire 4.5 and 5.0 over to the new server. A little repackaging may have been required, but, to these Linux Gurus, who want us to believe that their OS is the easiest desktop Linux out there, it would have been a day's work, at a guess.

No, I believe that the reason why this has not been done is to force me to upgrade to Linspire 6.0, which I will not do because I do not accept the licence, with its insinuation that somehow Linux is in breach of some undefined and undisclosed Software Patents belonging to Microsoft. Why should I support such FUD and rubbish? That kind of unethical conduct by MS is the reason I came to Lindows and supported them against the unjustified legal challenges that MS mounted all over the world in their attempt to squash a small and newly started venture with an eye to a share in the desktop computer market.

So, you ask, how long would have been enough? Well, the real answer is, after my life-time membership was available in CNR.com. In a practical sense, maybe 3 months notice would have been somewhere near the time it would take for everyone to prepare as best they could for a loss of service that was never expected. Three days was absolutely disgraceful as far as I am concerned.

How much notice would you think adequate?

__________________
Paul G. Taylor, Auckland, NZ
LinuxUser_436483 - currently using Klikit-Linux 0.1-8
Lindows Life-time Insider, former life-time member of CNR Warehouse.
Wiki : Reinstalling Linspire Applications

JDoyle

In reality, it was 6 days from the notice to the actual shutdown of the warehouse.

JD

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thorpe

Well I think maybe put it back up for another week would be fair, but unfortunately due to compatibility issues with the PHP that would not be possible. Best thing to do at this point is to upgrade to Linspire 6.0.17 or Freespire 2.0.8. Those with Lifetime cnr memberships have lost nothing, as Linspire has stated publicly that they would still honor them.

Ray

Dr.Jones

Sorry, but pls. review all the posts on this subject. The issue was a technical one due to the change of PHP that was running on the server. The Legacy CNR server was not compatible with the new version of PHP, and doing anything other than what was done would have taken effort away from moving forward with CNR.com (you can believe me or not, but had it been just a "day's work" it would've been done). The legacy CNR was truly more complicated (and higher risk) than the CNR Client due to all the functionality built into the tool (why the system was redesigned - single point of failure). Yes more notice would've been preferred, but that wouldn't change the outcome...

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richard.a

Mate it was 24 hours from the posting of the PR blurb via email when received by people on the west coast of the USA... then allow 14hrs timezone in my favour, that makes about 36 hours for us this side of the world, allowing for the fact that I was asleep at the time of the email posting.

You do not have to be 24/7 logged on to a forum and check every new post to see an advance warning of a change of contractual relationship that benefits the person who is contracted to provide the service at the expense of the person receiving the service.

Paul is spot-on my friend, and this has all the looks of shady business dealings when looked at totally objectively.

Those on many other forums and blogs have been just a leetle more positive than Paul and me on this topic.

A leetle? A lot, actually.

One has to wonder about the likelihood of a class action. In many countries if a supplier or manufacturer's product does not stand the test of time, it is deemed to be in breach of the law as applicable to the provision of service or sale.

Nobody is arguing here for an indefinite extension of the ver 5/5.1 CNR, although that might be able to be definied in law... and I would be loathe to consider that. But some lawyers somewhere could find a judge who they are able to persuade to do so.

In that regard look at the judge in the Netherlands who imposed a fine on Lindows Inc and MR if any person in the Benelux countries actually accessed the lindows.com website. Remember lin---s.com? Please don't say there aren't lawyers and judges like that, because that case just proves they are around.

Let's not be individually supportive of a system that has failed us, but look to how we can continue.

Please.

Richard

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Linux User 416434 richard.a Pooh-Bah Joined:13 Sep 2003 Total posts:+1555

JDoyle

The email said it would be closed on the tenth. The Warehouse was actually closed down on the 14th (the 15th on your side of the dateline). The 8th to the 14th. 6 days, no matter where in the world you are. Yes, more time would have been better, but it was not done as quickly as some would have you believe.

JD

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richard.a

So they lied.

Proof conclusive.

And they argued over my posts about the lack of synch for different versions instead of doing something about it? Please read my two posts about that, one in the Insiders section, one moved to the Company section.

Perhaps I could have downloaded and installed the one missing product on the Freespire side and LOS 5.0 side that I discovered. The product was the excellent gparted partition editor, btw, and I'm sure there would have been other products too.

Likely there were dependency issues, or something, and if that had been addressed, I could live with it. But not just out-and-out criticism. As I said, read the posts in those two threads.

How was I - or anyone else - to know the deadline was extended if they didn't tell anyone?

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Linux User 416434 richard.a Pooh-Bah Joined:13 Sep 2003 Total posts:+1555

JDoyle

It was discussed in this thread: http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?t=14497
At least twice Dr.Jones posted about an extension, once on the 10th (you were present in the forums that day -- posting about the lack of sync), and once on the 12th. The warehouse was still up and running when I went to bed on the 13th (about 10PM Pacific).

JD

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JDoyle

My 4.5.316 machine shows that it connected to the Legacy CNR server at 4:21AM (Pacific) on the 15th.



JD

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richard.a

I believe you are missing the point completely. I see two totally seperate issues here.

First and more important
Since when is my contractual relationship with a forum on a different organisation's website? Linspire Inc emailed me as one of the people who had a contractual relationship with them based on payments received.

If they were capable of a mass mailing telling everyone it was closing, then why not a similar mass mailing saying the deadline was extended?

Nowhere has it ever been said that as part of MY contractual relationship would I have to watch forum threads and carefully go through their indices with a fine toothcomb to discover if someone had posted something that might have some bearing - not even when we had the real lindows.com and then linspire.com forums.


Second and less important
As you have access to forums stats, you should realise that the first time I ever visited that thread you mentioned - titled CNR Legacy - was a few minutes after I received your reply to my previous post. Perhaps half an hour ago.

If I had seen it (which I didn't) I would not have wasted time reading it
.
Why not?

Because The Company had already told me by email that I had only 24 hours left in which to download. That time was precious to me.

However I did take a few minutes to post in two places (one in the Insiders' area, the other in the Outsiders' area) about CNR appearing to be malfunctioning at that time - hoping for a comment, nay even a solution to what looked like failure at the server side - and the company rep responded to me in both threads; at no time did he say anything about my RFH on the lack of synch between 5.0, 5.1, 1.0 and 1.1.

Nor was any comment made about a further 6 days of grace being granted, although he was still in both those threads days and days later.

If you read both of my identical initial posts in those two threads - look at http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?t=14545 as an example - you would see that the opening grumble was quite short, and I was seeking a technical solution to my inability to download a particular product when using a particular system, and I was asking for a quick "something" so I could download it during the remaining very few hours.

Sadly help was not forthcoming in either thread before the deadline imposed by the company.

The implication here appears to be that I was at fault for not reading every other confounded thread when the threads I were in were already very busy on the topic in question, the person you say who posted the information was also in those threads, and in actual fact I do have a real life as well. I do not consider that criticism as valid, because the implication is that it is my fault. I disagree.

Let me quote... first from me, in the major discussion thread at the time... on 10th...
Secondly from TekMate in the same thread... the same day...
I suggest that the server had already been taken down if you read Tekmate's post carefully.

Quote:

until I tried to login to get something

I read that as saying that on 10th, TekMate was unable to download anything from the CNR server. And TekMate, I'm not trying to implicate you, merely point out that you are corroborating the point I was making.

Perhaps CNR was taken down on the deadline, and then put up again ? But nobody is saying, and it really isn't all that important an issue except that now it's been raised as a personal attack, I need to make a response.

When you are told by its owners (linspire.com) it will be taken down at a certain time, why would you waste time going and looking later? After all the CNR site was usually as slow as any you could find so it would be a time waster twice over, as many would see it.

I still find it strange that this news of six more days of access was not mentioned in either of the two threads where posting was running thick and fast. The has to be an answer, but I suspect what that answer is will not get told.

Thank you for taking me to task for being totally accurate in my post, yet in your eyes it looks like I'm still wrong. Quite unbelievable.

Don't get me wrong. This post is not a personal attack like the one to which I'm responding, but that one sure looks to me like an official rebuke.

Richard

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Linux User 416434 richard.a Pooh-Bah Joined:13 Sep 2003 Total posts:+1555

JDoyle

First. My apologies, Richard, if you view my comments as a personal attack. I assure that is not my intention.

Second. I am only providing information (I am not an 'official' representative of Linspire, I am a volunteer moderator for these forums only). My only purpose in this exchange is to express that the information you sought was available. Albeit not in the format or delivery method you would have preferred.

I too had issues connecting to the Legacy CNR server the weekend I received the email, but during the course of that week was able to install everything I wanted before the warehouse was closed.

I fully understand you position, and how you feel about it.

JD

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richard.a

My friend I truly appreciate that. On reflection, what I wrote in 20/20 hindsight (for which no glasses are needed) did come across strongly against you and I am sincerely sorry about that.

I appreciate your response, mate.

Richard

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Linux User 416434 richard.a Pooh-Bah Joined:13 Sep 2003 Total posts:+1555

PGTips91

OK everyone, please remember that this thread is devoted to finding solutions to a problem, not discussing how or why the problem came about. There are other threads for that.

I admit that I got sidetracked a bit earlier. Can we all just simmer down and return to the topic and work together to see what we can do, as a community, to help each other deal with the closure of CNR Warehouse?

__________________
Paul G. Taylor, Auckland, NZ
LinuxUser_436483 - currently using Klikit-Linux 0.1-8
Lindows Life-time Insider, former life-time member of CNR Warehouse.
Wiki : Reinstalling Linspire Applications

Dr.Jones

Thank You for steering the discussion back on-topic...

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Ken@Freespire.org

Freespire Bugzilla

Bob3

I've probably got at least a half-dozen hard drives floating around here that have an assortment of downloaded software on them, starting from around Lindows 4.0 on up through the pre & post 5.0.
I usually had the CnR stash a copy of the downloaded program & we tested out a LOT of various programs.
I'm in the process of doing some shop tending which includes shoveling a path through the "vintage" section.
If only there were a market for "vintage" computer gear like there wound up being for vintage dive gear I'd be able to retire - again!
Once I get all the stuff "organized" I'll post a list of what all I have available.
We're equipped with 10 mbps upload speed (an honest 8 mbps anyway) so I can do fairly quick file xfers, or even isos of the original OS.

I recently tripped over a "factory copy" of 3.0 and I still have the very first download of the Lindows "SPX", whenever the heck that was.

__________________

PGTips91

Well I am kind of dumbfounded. After looking today at CNR.com for Cinelerra and finding that it is there but only for Linspire 5.0 and 5.1.

http://cnr.com/product/productSpecifications.seam?conversationId=39558&pr oductId=16436

Also, looking at the reviews, they go back to 2005.


What gives?

As an aside, I found that I was able to install from the Specifications page using gdebi and the .deb file applicable to my OS, even though the CNR client does not work - it gives an error message saying that it cannot identify which version of Linux is running and quits. But once gdebi takes over it is handled by the normal system and appears in Synaptic along with everything else.

__________________
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LinuxUser_436483 - currently using Klikit-Linux 0.1-8
Lindows Life-time Insider, former life-time member of CNR Warehouse.
Wiki : Reinstalling Linspire Applications

Dr.Jones

CNR.com was originally populated with products from the Legacy CNR Warehouse (needed to start somewhere), then repositories for Freespire 2.0, Linspire 6.0, ubuntu 7.04, etc. were added to that baseline. Products for Linspire Five-0 and Freespire 1.0 have always existed, but the issue is building a CNR Client (that has the correct libraries as dependencies) for the legacy OS's. If there are Legacy Applications that you think should have priority to be ported to all distributions, then pls. provide input...

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Ken@Freespire.org

Freespire Bugzilla

PGTips91

Well I am still quite confused. If CNR.com was originally populated with products from the Legacy CNR Warehouse, they must have been accessible with a client or they would have been no use at all. The CNR.com project was started long before Freespire 2.0 was released, after all. [What's the time-line here?]

Secondly, as the client is now Open Source, as I recall, then it should be possible for anyone in the community to compile it for any distro, including Linspire 4.5 and 5.0. As the client is now a light client, basically just linking up a web page with APT, I can't see how compiling it has to be so difficult, time consuming and economically nonviable. Any dependencies that conflict with existing applications could be built-in to the client so that it did not use the older libraries. There are other techniques that can get around such dependency conflicts also.

The fact is, that I am able, with an 'unsupported' OS, to download and install from the CNR.com repositories without needing the CNR client, just by downloading the .deb file from the applicable repository.

So, putting this all together, I see no good reason why all the repositories for Linspire 4.5 and 5.0 from the CNR Warehouse could not be used to populate CNR.com repositories and make them available, either by a community-developed client or simply by using Synaptic.

What is wrong with this logic?

__________________
Paul G. Taylor, Auckland, NZ
LinuxUser_436483 - currently using Klikit-Linux 0.1-8
Lindows Life-time Insider, former life-time member of CNR Warehouse.
Wiki : Reinstalling Linspire Applications

JDoyle

Are you volunteering to write a client for the Legacy versions?

JD

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Dr.Jones

First there are no products in the CNR.com pool that will support versions earlier than Linspire Five-0 (Linspire 4.5 has never been discussed as an option).The original Products in CNR.com came from the Linspire Five-0, Five-0 V2 and Freespire 1.0 repositories as a baseline when CNR.com was created. Yes there's a plan (in fact it has been posted that the plan has never been rejected, just postponed) to create a CNR Client for Linspire Five-0 and Freespire 1.0. The issue is the version of libraries in Linspire Five-0 conflict with the dependencies of the CNR Client (required to support all Debian versions). Yes anyone can create a version of the CNR Client for the legacy *spire versions, but the task requires proper tools so that the end result doesn't break the OS. Yes you can use the .deb files to install, but the version your installing wasn't built against your OS which (depending on the dependencies) could have undesired results. All I'm trying to do is provide the facts associated with this situation...

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Ken@Freespire.org

Freespire Bugzilla

DrHu

Instead of all these issues dealing with cnr clients and the Linspire business of providing a universal client

Why can't Linspire just offer the classic client to the Lnspire 5x users, and give them some time to use it..

Noting that the universal cnr client will not support them
--maybe in BIG BOLD LETTERS

Possibly a cnr section, just for Linspire 5x users, who need the classic cnr-client
--they should be able to test cnr client version ##, and direct to cnr client legacy (if the site/storage exists), when they are not using the newer client

If they wish to upgrade to Linspire 6, they can then use the universal cnr client, that has been developed for everyone, and as many distributions that are being supported..

This doesn't merge anything or solve the problem of the one client (universal web interface), but it would have been preferable if it had stayed that way for those Linspire members who would be stuck, when they could no longer use cnr
--and as Linspire knows, cnr is the selling point for ease-of-use for a Linspire purchaser

Since they didn't manage to do it that way, for their customer base, they are stuck with it..
--and either Linspire 5x purchasers' will have to be more patient or upgrade ?

I know the next objection will be
--well that means you have to create a web client for those Linspire 5x users, and that's the plan already..
--not a web client, a web test to redirect to the legacy client (storage site) for them that needs it..

If that is the issue, offer directly on the cnr.com a web link to use the legacy client, to link to the legacy cnr pool/repositories (if they still are available), and then let those Linspire 5x users use em, until the new cnr client for all truly exists, including those legacy Linspire 5x users..

richard.a

Paul and folks, an interesting discovery then.

Looking at that link, Ken, there seem to be only a few, although there is a substantial sized list.

I looked and found that many of the apps I downloaded and found useful don't feature there.

Wonder if I should have looked somewhere else?

Richard

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Linux User 416434 richard.a Pooh-Bah Joined:13 Sep 2003 Total posts:+1555

Dr.Jones

Could you pls. provide a few examples of the products you're looking for that existed in the Legacy CNR Warehouse but not elsewhere?

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Ken@Freespire.org

Freespire Bugzilla

Dr.Jones

Trying to understand this proposal. There was no dedicated apt access to Linspire Five-0 repositories (Yes Linspire 5.1.427 could use the Freespire 1.0 repositories with minor possible issues - there are differences between those versions), so all products (both gratis and commercial) were in the same pool requiring restricting access to the commercial products (done through the ecommerce engine). The Linspire ecommerce engine required an upgrade that precipitated this event, so to maintain access to the commercial products that exist in the LS 5.0 pool, the Legacy CNR Client would've had to be updated (along with all the API's connecting the Legacy Client to the servers) to allow the access provided before.This was a significant undertaking that would have had an effect on all users of CNR (impacting all universal CNR.com users). If there would've been a solution to this problem that didn't impact all users, it would have been implemented. Regarding the creation of a CNR Client for the legacy *spire versions, that again is no insignificant task due to the different architectures (why there was no upgrade path from legacy to current) and libraries used, but the task is still in the long-range plan (unfortunately from what I understand no time soon)...

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Bro.Tiag

I understand the issue, I really do, but it would seem to me that as an interim step could not have the Legacy CNR Client (without the commercial products) still have been maintained? Possibly mirrored with a redirect for those still using 5.0?

Cheers

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Since 08 Feb 07

Dr.Jones

That's one of the major issues. It would take some time to remove the commercial products access (which access to those is the primary concern we get feedback regarding), and that wouldn't change that the API's would need to be rewritten (either to support the new ecommerce or to redesign the code to avoid the ecommerce - remember that Sign-in was required to use the Legacy CNR). Redesign would be required even creating a mirror of the legacy CNR (using the Legacy CNR Client). The limitation was the design of the Legacy CNR Client doing everything; thereby, requiring significant restructure under any new architecture...

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Ken@Freespire.org

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x86

I do not undersdtand why everyone does not accept that the Current CNR is totally different. The Legacy CNR Client was good is now on hold, lets just move on. PC's are so so cheap there is little or no reason to run older versions of *Spire except for nostalga! OK FS2/LS6 does not always install, but that could be said of other distro's.

This is just so BORING............................................ ......

Bro.Tiag

Then yur participation is not required. Right! Move along then, there is nothing to see here.


I'm not getting it, or I'm not getting my question across properly. I understand why Legacy CNR is not being migrated to the new format. I get it. What I do not get is why a version of the old CnR Legacy Warehouse could not be mirrored somewhere to allow 5.0 users to continue utilizing the Legacy CNR.

Cheers

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Since 08 Feb 07

Dr.Jones

The Legacy CNR will not work w/o the API's connecting to the servers (in fact will cause issues if they can't connect to the servers as was experienced the first couple days the Legacy CNR Warehouse was closed). Making the Legacy CNR Client function would take developer time no matter what the solution is (either updating to work under the new architecture or breaking the ecommerce connection - mirroring the legacy doesn't solve anything). Making the Legacy CNR Client work as designed takes developer time (due to it's original design). Dumping the Legacy CNR Client for apt access takes time creating a gratis Linspire Five-0 repository that never previously existed. Best answer is dumping the Legacy CNR for a new CNR Client that supports Linspire Five-0 and Freespire 1.0, but again due to differences in architecture (and libraries) between the legacy OS's and the CNR Client dependencies, results in developer time to resolve those issues. Hopefully this makes the situation clearer...

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Ken@Freespire.org

Freespire Bugzilla

Dr.Jones

An understandable bigger issue is an application being used that only functions on the Legacy OS. That's why this issue is still considered open...

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Ken@Freespire.org

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